The Report From The Select Committee On The State Of Ireland, Ordered, by The House of Commons, 2 August 1832.

" Special Commission having been appointed to try the persons who had been apprehended as guilty of acts of insurrection in the Queen's County. "

Excerpts which mention Ballynakill in the County Laois.

The Report From The Select Committee On The State Of Ireland
  • 4339. YOU are a Catholic clergyman in the parish of Ballynakill, in the Queen's County ?-Yes.

  • 4340. How long have you been in that situation ?-The last eight years.

  • 4341. Ballynakill is not a great distance from what is called the Colliery district, in the Queen's County? -Four or five miles.

  • 4342. Are you acquainted with it ?--Yes, from intercourse ; my parish does not go into the collieries.

  • 4343. Has that district of country, the neighbourhood of Ballynakill, been Rev. J. Delaney: much disturbed of late ?-Very much so latterly.

  • 4344. By the Whitefeet association ?-Yes ; they have latterly assumed that appellation.

  • 4345. At what period did those disturbances commence ?-In the year 1827 à public building was undertaken in the parish, and to this building two rambling masons resorted, they came in from Mr. Cosby's estate ; although not living there they were occasionally employed in that district ; they came to this building, and after they were there ten or twelve days it reached me they were swearing in the people.

  • 4346. What was the building ?-Out-offices belonging to Mr. Cooper, who has an estate in the parish. On the succeeding Sunday I explained to the people the nature and evils of illegal combinations ; I appealed to their own experience of the horrors that resulted from like associations in 1798, and finally denounced the men by name, and thus succeeded in removing them from the parish ; this was in the spring of 1827. It appeared that they infected a good many persons engaged in this building, for in a short time after that a body of men from the colliery, as I am informed, assembled at this building, and paid a visit to one of the neighbouring farmers, forbidding him to dispossess some people under him ; to be a good neighbour, meaning thereby that he should not refuse a free passage through his land to a neighbour who claimed it as a matter of right. When I heard this I waited on the local magistrate, who apprised Mr. Foote, the chief of police, and I met them the following morning by appointment at the house so visited ; the servants and work- people were examined, and I found it my duty to put some questions to them, which they declined answering until compelled by the magistrate. I think it was in the harvest of mowing, two men, one of them calling himself Captain Rock, paid a visit to Mr. Cooper's workmen, forbidding them to work under a certain rate of wages, and also requiring a better quality of food for the mowers ; I apprised the magistrate of this also. We had the steward and workmen summoned ; many of the respectable inhabitants of Ballynakill were present at their examinations. I put some very embarrassing questions to the steward, and upon both those occasions the people complained of my conduct, and said I outstepped my duty, and was rather officious. Those were the first two instances of insubordination that occurred in the parish over which I have presided for the last eight years ; the persons concerned were not then known as Whitefeet or Blackfeet, but as members ofthe Ribbon Society.

  • 4347. When did any further instances take place of this sort of proceeding ?- We remained pretty quiet for a year and a half afterwards, but I had occasion. frequently to appeal to the people not to be employing strangers ; one of my chapels is in the neighbourhood of Timahoe, which at that period was very much disturbed, and I found that many of the people of that district resorted to my chapel to swear in the people ; and I had (almost every second Sunday that I go there in turn) to caution the farmers not to employ strangers, and was at length under the necessity of forbidding such characters to resort to my chapel. The spirit of combination spread through the surrounding collieries, Wolfe-hill, Newtown, Clough, and that belonging to Lady Ormonde ; and after a short time it got into my parish, and a great many outrages were committed in consequence.

  • 4348. What year did that take place in ? -This was occurring in 1828 and 1829 ; it was not extensively established in my parish till about 1830.

  • 4349. In what way did it show itself so extensively ?--In serving notices ; in enforcing what they conceived to be rights, family settlements, &c.; requiring the surrender of lands that had passed out of the hands of the former occupants some 16 or 17 years before ; taking up arms, and beating those obnoxious to them.

  • 4350. Were their measures directed against the Government ?-Not in any instance.

  • 4351. Were they directed against the gentlemen ? -No, they were matters rather of a personal or domestic nature about which they latterly interfered ; but at first this system showed itself in an effort to raise the rate of wages and better the condition of the labourer.

  • 4352. And in all matters in which they felt a personal interest ?-Yes, they were mostly personal or family disputes ; they were generally of that character.

  • 4353. From 1830, did it continue extending ?-Yes, it spread very much ; many persons were served with notices to give up lands, arms taken from some, and others beaten to compel them to enter into their associations .

  • 4354. Did they make any distinction in the religion of the persons attacked ?- No; in my parish the population is almost entirely Catholic.

  • 4355. The farmers as well as the lower orders ?-Yes, they attacked any man suspected of having arms ; they visited them indiscriminately, whether Protestant or Catholic.

  • 4356. What is the present state of your parish, according to the last account ?-Before I left home we were fast returning to peace and order ; great numbers had come in and renounced their wicked courses ; and since my arrival here, I have learned, both by letter and from those gentlemen who have left Ireland at a later period, that outrage has disappeared, that the misguided peasantry are surrendering their arms in great quantities. I myself have received some before I left home, and I have been informed that many more have since been delivered up to my curate.

  • 4357. Do you think that this tranquillity will be permanent ?-It will depend in a great degree upon the hopes of amelioration held out to the people.

  • 4358. What are their own feelings about their own condition as to their causes of complaint ? They complain that the con-acre rents are very high, the wages they receive exceedingly low, and totally inadequate to enable them to support their families, and that they cannot obtain employment.

  • 4359. How is the case with regard to rent ; are these people the people that hold land ; are they the occupiers of land that form these associations ?-Latterly there have been a few instances of persons occupying land compelled by the system of terrorism that so generally prevailed to join them ; at first they were composed solely of persons alike destitute of property or character ; generally speaking, ofthe lowest grade in society.

  • 4360. That being the case, how could they consider rent a grievance, if they were so low as not to be themselves tenants ?-That is one of the objects that they profess to have in view in combining together ; viz. in the first instance, to better their own condition, to enforce an advance of wages, and to lower the rents of land generally.

  • 4361. And the tithes ?-No.

  • 4362. Are the wages lower than the usual rate in the county, or pretty much the same ?-In the last years there has been a great falling off in the rate of wages.

  • 4363. How do you explain that ; how does it show itself ?-In seasons of scarcity the people are glad to work for their diet.

  • 4364. Do they actually work for their diet ?-I have known several in seasons of scarcity ; and there have been three or four partial famines since my appointment to the parish of Ballynakill ; and I have known them to offer their labour for the food they receive during the day.

  • 4365. Was not that the case formerly?-Not formerly ; I have known the labourers within my recollection to receive per day 2 s. , or 1 s. 8d. and diet.

  • 4366. In the harvest time ?-Yes.

  • 4367. What is the ordinary rate of wages ?-In my district, and in the neighbouring parishes where I have intercourse, 6 d. a day and diet ; 8 d. without diet.

  • 4368. That is when employed ?-Yes.

  • 4369. A great deal of their time they are not employed ?-Seven months out of twelve, perhaps, they are not employed.

  • 4370. Is the population very great ?-Yes.

  • 4371. Has it greatly increased ?--Yes, our pauper population of late years has greatly increased ; the town I live in was once a manufacturing town ; so late as 15 or 18 years since, the stuff trade, which even then remained with us, gave full and lucrative employment to 300 looms ; each of those afforded employment to at least three persons in preparing the web, and putting it through the usual process ; all this has of late disappeared ; 70 looms only are now casually employed : thus a number of hands, once so profitably employed, are now thrown upon the town ; they are ill- calculated for the labours of the husbandman, and few such wish to employ them. This will account in some degree for the increase of pauperism in our town, and the superabundance of labourers ; they are perhaps more numerous than in the neighbouring villages.

  • 4372. There has been a great plenty of provisions this year ?-Yes, there has.

  • 4373. You have stated that there is nothing political in these combinations, that they arise chiefly from local causes ; can you state any circumstances that have occurred in your neighbourhood, of late years, that might have contributed to those combinations ?-There have a great many causes occurred in neigh￾bouring parishes, and perhaps some in my own. I will state one that occurred in my own parish : there were three families, comprising 23 individuals ; the heads of those families were accused of having cut scollops or switches for the pur￾pose of thatching their cabins, or perhaps for sale ; there were some ash and oak. The parties so offending were summoned, and a fine of 5 l. recorded against them ; the landlord gave them the option of going out instanter (it was in the depth of winter, in November) , forgiving them the arrears due and the fine, or pay the fine, and be served with notice to quit in six months ; they chose the first alternative, and went out ; their families were scattered over the parish. The next summer, 1830, was one of famine with us ; we were obliged to introduce a sort of poor-rate, to keep the people from starving and dying in the ditches ; two of those families were thrown upon the parish, and I had to support them myself; there was not so ample a provision for the poor in the district where they lived ; they came into the neighbourhood of the town ; the people in the town very naturally objected to their being thrown upon their fund, and I had to give them 2 s. or 3 s. a week to support them ; one of the poor men lost his cow ; some time after being turned out, a series of calamities befel him ; he took ill , and after lingering a long time in a state of the utmost destitution and misery, died of a broken heart. The sons of this man, together with a son of the second family above mentioned, became leaders in this system of ribbonism, and I have reason to believe were some of the most daring and ferocious amongst them ; one of them to this day has held out against all my admonitions, and has not yet sur￾rendered himself.

  • 4374. Did you represent their case to this landlord ? -I did.

  • 4375. Who was that individual ?-The late Mr. Cooper, of Cooper Hall.

  • 4376. Did he take any steps to relieve them ?-He was ill at this time ; I went to Maryborough to the assizes to see him ; I failed in obtaining an interview ; I wrote to him afterwards, and he told the person he would leave directions with the steward on the subject of my letter.

  • 4377. Did any other cases of considerable hardship occur in your neighbourhood ? There was a vast number of persons in the course of the last seven years ejected from the estate of the late Mr. Cosby ; some of them came into my parish, and I found them exceedingly troublesome, and disposed to engage in those illegal associations ; at length I was under the necessity of speaking to the farmers, and implored them not to encourage such characters, and if possible to prevent their settling on their land, and in truth it was no easy matter, for if they found an outhouse unoccupied they would literally force themselves into it, and keep possession until they could procure shelter elsewhere, or until their participation in some act of outrage, or their attempts to propagate their favourite system, fell under the notice of myself or my assistant, and obliged us in self defence to expel them from the parish. Our conduct in this respect was by them considered very severe and even cruel, and, I have reason to know, brought down on us their bitterest resentment. It was to those persons I alluded in the early part of my evidence, where I stated that I cautioned the farmers not to receive strangers, and forbid them to resort to my chapel.

  • 4378. Were there many families turned out ?-In the course of seven years, I have been informed that 100 families were turned off that one estate.

  • 4379. What are the wages gotten in the collieries ? -My parish is not in the colliery. say.

  • 4380. Can you inform us whether 4s. a day is got by the colliers ? -I cannot

  • 4381. Those individuals must have been the means of spreading it through the country?-Yes ; we could lay our hands upon some of them, as being notorious leaders amongst the Whitefeet.

  • 4382. You said respectable farmers had been forced to join them ?-I did not make use of the word respectable ; I said those holding small quantities of land were forced through intimidation to acquiesce in their proceedings.

  • 4383. Do you mean that it was a system of intimidation, and that they would rather not join it if they could help it ?-They would not if they could help it.

  • 4384. You have stated that the causes of excitement were from high rent and the want of employment, the men being driven off the estates ? They were some of the causes.

  • 4385. Do you conceive the opposition to tithe forms any part of the system ?-- Rev. J. Delancy. 2 July 1832. II 3 No;254 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Rev. J. Delaney. No ; those illegal associations had been in existence two years before the opposi￾tion to tithe manifested itself. 2 July 1832.

  • 4386. Then are the Committee to understand you do not consider the resistance to tithe an illegal association ?-I do not conceive it illegal to oppose the collection of tithes if we look to the means resorted to in such opposition, viz. peaceable, legal, and constitutional means.

  • 4387. You do not conceive that passive resistance to tithe, not allowing property to be sold, can be considered illegal ? -No.

  • 4388. You consider it legal ? Yes.

  • 4389. Do you consider that the meeting of thousands, and cautions not to have anything to say to tithe, are legal ?-I conceive where a seizure is made, and property put up to sale, that the person whose property is so seized is not obliged to put his hand in his pocket and pay ready money ; the law says you shall pay a certain sum, or in default your property will be liable to seizure ; the person chooses the latter alternative ; I conceive it to be a perfectly legal course ; he is not to execute the law upon himself.

  • 4390. Are you aware that the lives and property of persons purchasing goods seized for tithes have been endangered, and that these crowds who go to form passive resistance operates to intimidate purchasers ?-It has not occurred in my parish ; and I cannot state, nor am I bound to know, the motives of those persons ; they may not be actuated by the motives you impute to them.

  • 4391. Do -Certainly. you not think an auction implies a number of persons to be present ?

  • 4392. You cannot conceive an auction to go on with two or three persons ?- No; the law requires three bidders.

  • 4393. You say employment has fallen off?-Yes.

  • 4394. Do you consider that owing to the state of the country ?-I do not ; from my intercourse with many of the extensive farmers, I can state it as a positive fact, that owing to the oppressive burdens that have fallen upon them for the last years, namely, the excessive taxes levied for the building of gaols, lunatic asylums, the payment of the constabulary, police chiefs, and stipendiary magis￾trates, all these falling exclusively on the occupier of the soil, have rendered him unable to employ more than half the number of persons he formerly did.

  • 4395. Do you consider that tithe, as the law now stands, is a legal due ? - Yes, so far as the law gives a right.

  • 4396. It gives an undoubted right ?-It gives a right to the incumbent.

  • 4397. Do you consider that a passive resistance to the law is legal resistance ? -I have already stated my opinion as to the legality of such resistance ; the law allows an option to a person in such circumstances either to pay the money demanded, or to suffer the distress to proceed.

  • 4398. Do you consider that a man could pay his tithe without being subjected to personal violence ?-When or where?

  • 4399. In the neighbourhood of Ballynakill, from your knowledge of the country generally ?-He may have his fears and apprehensions, whether well or ill founded I am not prepared to say.

  • 4400. Do you not consider that the present resistance to the payment of tithe amounts to a regular organized combination to defeat the ends of the law ?-No, I conceive that every man acts for himself.

  • 4401. You have heard of a meeting of 5,000 or 10,000 people assembling to superintend sales -For the purpose of looking on, I have.

  • 4402. Do you imagine that they had any other object but looking on ? -I can￾not state, nor am I bound to know what their object may be ; they, like all crowds or vast assemblages, I would suppose, were actuated more by curiosity than any other motive.

  • 4403. You have not heard of such an object as this avowed, that the meeting was to overawe any man who might have the intention of purchasing what was put up for sale ?-There having been no such meeting in my parish, I am not competent to say what may have been the avowed objects of such meetings.

  • 4404. A man who takes a farm, subject to the payment of tithe, and then refuses to pay the tithe, is it not your opinion that that man is guilty of a moral fraud ? If so, he is open to the law, and that will take its course.

  • 4405. Suppose a man is able to adopt such steps as to defeat the operation. of the law, is it not your opinion he is guilty of adding to the fraud physical resis￾tance to the power of the law?--I did not catch the exact import of the question.

  • 4406. Your idea is, that where a debt is due the party may pay it or leave it to be recovered by law?-I have so stated.

  • 4407. And if a party declines to pay it, the other party can pursue his remedy? -Certainly.

  • 4408. But the tithe question has nothing to say, in your opinion, to the present state of disturbance ?-No, it existed long before.

  • 4409. You have stated there has been a good deal of irritation in consequence of the turning out of tenantry ; do you not think there is a feeling among the lower classes and small owners of land in that county, that this association of Whitefeet has the effect of deterring landlords from pursuing the system of turning out tenants, and benefiting the estate thereby at the expense of the individuals turned out can you state any instances where it has so operated ?--I think such is the feeling amongst those who have entered into combination ; and I have heard that it has had that effect in the neighbouring parish, where, on the termination of a lease, the tenantry were called on to give up the possession ; and it was also intimated that the holdings would not be let in the same small divisions as formerly this spirit of combination was abroad at the time, it is now two years ago ; and the people in the district, as I am informed, got connected with e system going forward for the very purpose of preventing those notices being carried into effect ; and I have reason to believe that many of the persons so combined have been suffered to remain in their farms.

  • 4410. On what estate is that ?-The Marquis of Lansdowne's ; the greater number have been suffered to remain in their holdings, and some have gone away.

  • 4411. Was there any proposition made in your part of the country, 12 months ago, to form an armed association to keep watch and ward ?-It is not so long since a proposition was made bysome of the clergy for that

  • 4412. What clergy ?-The Roman- catholic clergy. purpose.

  • 4413. The question refers to an association proposed to be formed in June 1831 , when the magistrates came to a resolution to form armed associations ; can you inform the Committee whether any steps were taken in your neighbourhood by the magistrates to form those associations ? Notices were posted up bythe police to that effect ; I had not seen them, nor did I hear of them till a later period ; but I recollect on some one of those occasions, when I addressed the misguided and infatuated portion of my people, for the purpose of inducing them to give up any arms they might have unlawfully possessed themselves of (and I had already secured 13 or 14 stand of arms, and handed them over to the magis trate), I recollect being accosted by some of those persons in something like the following terms : " You are very anxious and zealous in your efforts to withdraw from the peasantry some few old useless guns, while there is a yeomanry corps being formed in the next village, and about to be entrusted with arms." I inquired if such was the fact, and I was told that many of the old yeomanry corps had been sworn in ; that application had been made to the Government for arms, and that there was not a single Catholic invited to join them. I state this as the feeling and opinion of the people, and I know it was used by some as an argument why they should not give up their arms to me.

  • 4414. Then, in point of fact, the only notice by which you heard of this association, 12 months ago, was that the magistrates proposed to form this in the shape of an exclusive yeomanry corps, which you understood was forming in the town of Abbeyleix ?-Yes, it was so stated to me.

  • 4415. And you have no reason to doubt it ? -Not the least.

  • 4416. Then, in point of fact, no propositions were made to the landowners of the district to form an armed association ?--I heard there was a notice posted up by the police, but the people view with distrust any proposition coming through them ; but I have reason to believe, had the gentlemen addressed the people in the parishes or in the baronies, they would have come forward most willingly.

  • 4417. You cannot state the name of any respectable farmer in your district who was applied to to form that association ?--I cannot.

  • 4418. You think there was an application to form a corps in Abbeyleix, which you have given us to understand was the re- establishment of the old corps ?- Yes.

  • 4419. Do you not think that that was sufficient to create distrust in the minds of the people in that neighbourhood, supposing a regular plan of forming an armed association had been submitted to them ?--Where party distinctions are made, they naturally lead to that distrust. Rev. J. Delaney. 2 July 1832.

  • 4420. You have stated that at a subsequent period there was a plan to form an armed association ; state the period at which that was proposed ?-I believe it was about three weeks before the special commission was held in our county, or six weeks since ; the county at that period was in such a distracted state, life and property so insecure, that it became a question of life and death ; the police and military were unable or did not arrest the outrages that were committed in the noonday, and some of the clergy of the district (there are 12 or 13 catholic clergy comprised in the vicarage) met, and agreed to solicit, through Lord de Vesci, the permission of the Government to form a protecting association among the farmers of every class and creed. We sought and obtained an interview with Lord de Vesci for that purpose ; he approved of our proposition. There were two or three queries added on my suggestion. I found there was an objection among some of the respectable farmers to act under the local magistrate, and it was to obviate such objection, and to render it acceptable to the people, that the following query was submitted : " Are the members of such association liable to be called out at any time, and on any service, at the option of the magistrates ?"

  • 4421. What was Lord de Vesci's answer to you?-We received no answer to it.

  • 4422. Your application was that you were ready to form an association, and you wished to know the terms upon which it was to be formed ?-Exactly so.

  • 4423. If you had gone on with that determination , do you think the farmers would have acted, and that it would have had the effect of stopping the progress of the outrage which has since taken place? -The farmers were most anxious for it ; they felt themselves without protection, and wished the good and well - disposed of every class to combine to put down outrage, and to give confidence to the peaceable

  • 4424. Do you think that the delay that has occurred must have had the effect of increasing the dread and terror in which they are ?-I know it left the peaceable more open to intimidation.

  • 4425. You have spoken of the distrust of the local magistrates ; will you state what you mean by that?-I conceive it arose out of a transaction that occurred about 12 months since, on a Sunday, in the town of Ballynakill. There are two masses in the town chapel : between the hours of first and second mass, while engaged in the vestry in the discharge of my duty, baptizing children, a person came in great haste to say that the magistrate and three of the police were removing some papers that were posted about the town, and that some of the children coming to catechism (I must here observe that there are 700 or 800 children catechized between the masses), were collecting round the magistrate ; that it would be desirable were I to order them in to catechism, and thus prevent further noise. I went out immediately, and found the magistrate with those three police just at the chapel door, surrounded by a crowd of children and grown up boys ; he was reading something ; as I approached him he turned round, and said he was after reading the Riot Act. I said, " In the name of Heaven, has anything occurred to warrant it ?" "The police (said he) have been removing from about your place of worship papers which I consider inflammatory (there are two large trees before the chapel gate, to which papers are usually affixed), and they have been hooted and insulted by the people." While he was speaking to me, some boys came up, and the police remarked that those boys obstructed them, or laughed at them, when they were removing the papers in the town. I said to those boys, "Where are you going ? " they replied, "To the chapel. " I said, " Go in then immediately, or return home, as it is not yet the hour for mass. " The crowd continued collecting round us. I faced towards the chapel for the purpose of putting in the people, and while doing so an altercation arose between the police and a boy. The magistrate ordered the police to seize him; the boy made an effort to keep them off ; he did not like to be arrested. During this time one of the police was struck ; he fell, and on getting up he discharged his piece ; at this time there was a great crowd of people coming to second prayers ; the police and magistrate retreated to the barrack door, I followed, and was literally obliged to throw myself between them and the exasperated multitude, and to remain at the barrack door for 15 minutes, biding the pelting that followed ; if I had not been there, the probability is that those police and the magistrate would have been immolated on the spot. I remarked, after I had repressed this first burst of violence, to the magistrate, that if he had sent word to me I would have come out immediately, that the papers would have been quietly removed, and the sabbath suffered to pass in peace. He said that he was not accountable to me 2 July 1832 . for his conduct ; that as he knew the printer's name, and the persons who posted Rev. J. Delaney. those papers, he knew best what course to pursue ; that it was not for him to go into my place of worship, as he might be murdered there. I replied, " I am sorry, Sir, such an expression should have escaped you ; we have been till now on the best terms, cordially co-operating for the preservation of the public peace, and when anything has occurred calculated to disturb it, I have always solicited your interference." "You had better go into your place of worship, " was the reply. I did so. A meeting of the stipendiary, and five or six of the neighbouring magistrates, was called on the following day. Earl Stanhope's agent happened to be in the country ; he called upon me in the morning, and begged me to postpone any duty that would call me from home, in order to attend the meeting, which we imagined was called for the purpose of public investigation ; I did so ; and Mr. Cramer, and other respectable inhabitants of the town, went to the police barracks, where the magistrates were sitting, and requested to be examined as to the causes that, on the previous day, had nearly deluged the streets with blood, with a view to prevent a similar occurrence ; they further stated , that such public inquiry was absolutely necessary to satisfy the ends of justice, and to convince the public that there existed on the part of the magistrates every disposition to inquire into and remove all ground of complaint, and to administer justice impartially between party and party. The reply of the magistrates was, that the meeting was strictly private ; and when repeatedly urged by Mr. Cramer to receive the evidence tendered by the respectable inhabitants and their parish priest, as to the causes of the disturbance, they asked him if he came there in the character of public accuser. It is true they acknowledged my services on the previous day, and tendered me a vote of thanks, through the chairman, the Hon. and Rev. Arthur Vesci, but they refused the information tendered, and shut us out from their deliberations. Warrants were issued against seven persons. Some days afterwards, two of those police were looking out for one of these persons, who was not prepared with bail ; he happened to see them coming, and ran ; they were pretty near him, and called upon him to stand ; he did not attend to the challenge ; one of them very deliberately took aim, and fired at him, to prevent the necessity of further pursuit. All these things were the subject of a trial at the following assizes. This transaction , together with the circumstances attending it, which I have stated to the Committee with all possible brevity, excited strong feelings of distrust in the integrity of the magistracy, and created that disinclination which I have stated to exist on the part of many ofthe respectable inhabitants to be placed under their authority.

  • 4426. What were the papers ? -They were shown to me afterwards ; they contained a caution to the people not to have recourse to violence in their opposition to tithes ; not to offer any resistance to the seizure of their property ; to suffer the law to take its course, and pointing out a way by which this could be most effectually done.

  • 4427. Because there was a notice pointing out the wisest course to pursue as to tithes, these parties were committed, and one individual fired at in consequence ? What was the result of the trial ?-The result was, seven persons were convicted, and confined for different periods, three, six, and twelve months ; the policeman's conduct was declared to be unjustifiable, and yet, strange to say, he has been continued in his employment ever since, and is now in a neighbouring village.

  • 4428. Who was the magistrate ?-Mr. James Horan.

  • 4429. Has he any landed property ?-Yes ; it is let ; his income may be 2001. a year. 4

  • 4430. Has he been long in the commission of the peace ?-He came to reside at Ballynakill some years ago, but I believe he was in the commission before that time. 4

  • 4431. The conclusion the Committee may draw from that is, that this proceeding could have no effect to give confidence in the magistracy, or induce the people to pay the tithe, and that it was an expedient to enforce the payment of tithe ? -I should think so. 4

  • 4432. Did the people think that the magistrates holding the meeting with closed doors was an unjust proceeding ? -I have already stated that it excited a great deal of angry feeling and distrust in the public mind ; and this impression was still further confirmed by the refusal given to the repeated applications of Mr. Cramer for public inquiry.

  • 4433. You were indebted very greatly to the exertions of Mr. Cramer ?-Yes. 4

  • 4434. Was he the agent of Lord Stanhope ?-Yes, and a landowner in the county. 4

  • 4435. Did you make your report to Lord de Vesci of what you had witnessed ? -No ; the Honourable Arthur de Vesci, his brother, was present at the meeting. 4

  • 4436. He was not present at the transaction ?-No. 4

  • 4437. By what authority was the policeman's conduct declared unjustifiable ?--- The judge noticed it in his charge. 4

  • 4438. What judge ?-Mr. Baron Smyth. 4

  • 4439. Has a police officer the power to pull down any notice on a chapel door? -Previous to the occurrence alluded to, there was an election going on in the county, and as is usual on such occasions, election squibs got up, placards containing the names of persons voting for the several candidates were circulated by their respective friends throughout the county ; some of them were posted up in the town of Ballynakill. It so happened that in a conversation that occurred between me and the magistrate at the time, he noticed those placards, and mentioned his determination to have them removed, as he looked on them as holding up to public odium the gentlemen who voted for a certain candidate ; I observed, that in all probability those gentlemen looked upon it as an honour ; but that whether honour or disgrace attached to it, it seemed to be pretty equally divided, as there were placards on both sides. Those papers were removed by the police ; this was some days previous to the occurrence at the chapel-gate, and the people conceived at the time that the police were not justified in taking down those papers.

  • 4440. You have said that the policeman, to save himself the trouble of pursuit, took a shot at him?-That was the general impression.

  • 4441. That is the opinion you hold ?-I say that that was the general impression.

  • 4442. Do you not think such opinions, when circulated in society with the authority of a Roman catholic clergyman, are calculated to produce a strong feeling against the police ?-Up to this moment I never stated that such was my opinion, and I now mention it as the opinion of the public.

  • 4443. With regard to the associations to which you have alluded, do you conceive, if the plan suggested by you had been met and acted upon, that there would have been any difficulty in carrying it into effect ?-I have stated that the peaceable and industrious of all classes, the respectable farmers, were exceedingly anxious for it, and some of them signified to me their wishes on the subject.

  • 4444. In what way did they propose to have themselves divided into bodies, and who was to have authority over them to guide their proceedings when out on duty? -They proposed to have in each parish or district a certain number of men either sworn in, or without the sanction of an oath, and their duty would be to patrol the country at night, and if the Government chose to give them arms, that they should be lodged in depôt when not wanting.

  • 4445. Did they propose to act with the police ?-Yes, or under the authority of the magistrates, on certain conditions.

  • 4446. Were they to be under persons selected by themselves ?-Under either ; we sought the co-operation of the magistrates and the police.

  • 4447. Do you think there would be any difficulty in carrying that into effect now?-No, I think not.

  • 4448. Are you aware, or is it a fact, as far as it comes within your knowledge, that the Whiteboy association is exclusively composed of Roman-catholics ? I really cannot say that any Protestants ever applied to be admitted into it ; our population is almost exclusively Catholic, and it is generally of that class of persons it is composed.

  • 4449. I speak of the associations over the county ; have you ever known of any but Roman-catholics being the members of that illegal society bound together by an oath, as I believe you said they were ? -No, I have not said they were.

  • 4450. Are they, or are they not, bound together by an oath ?-They are ; there is an oath amongst them.

  • 4451. Are you aware of any but Roman-catholics being members of that body? -No.

  • 4452. Are there any Protestants of so low a class in society, or so poor as those who generally compose the Whitefeet ?-I cannot speak of the county generally, of my own knowledge ; I speak of the district in which I reside, and I say that in 259 that district there are not Protestants to be found in so very poor and low and Rev. J. Delaney. destitute a condition as the class of persons who generally compose those illegal associations.

  • 4453. Have you seen or heard the nature of that oath by which those people are bound together ?-The oath, as I understand, varies in different districts ; it is a compound of folly and impiety.

  • 4454. Have you heard any portion of that oath that goes to bind the parties to the destruction of hereties or Protestants ?-I never heard it, nor do I believe it forms a part of the oath ; I got one or two persons to repeat the substance of the oath, and, as I remarked before, it was a compound of impiety and folly.

  • 4455. But you never heard of it being directed against the Protestants, or the establishments of the country ?-I induced two persons who came to me for the purpose of renouncing this bond of iniquity, to repeat to me the substance of it ; I did so to convince them of its impiety, and no part of it had any such tendency.

  • 4456. Do you think they told you the whole ofthe oath ?--I have no reason to believe that one of them did not ; he was rather candid with me, and seemed deeply •penetrated with sorrow for his past conduct. Martis, 3 die Julii, 1832.

  • 4582. Subsequent to the establishment of the police, were there not several cases came on in Maryborough of loss of life, in the case of Mr. M'Donohough, who shot a man at Athy, and at Ballynakill, where seven men were killed , and another at Vickers Town, and several others ; and did not these excite a great deal of hostility to the police ?-I recollect the facts of M'Donohough's and the Ballynakill cases perfectly.

  • 4583. How many years ago did this occur ? -About the year 1823 ; I was high sheriff at the time.

  • 5699. What proceedings have taken place since June 1831 on the part of the magistrates as a body, in their general capacity and character ?-At the March Assizes of 1831 a remarkable trial had taken place of persons who engaged in a riot at the chapel of Ballynakill, in consequence of the police attempting, by order of and in presence of a magistrate, to take down that remarkable placard the Anti-Tithe Tax, that has been already mentioned . Eight persons were convicted of that riot, and Baron Smith, who was the presiding Judge, took considerable pains, and in the most forcible and energetic language, to represent to those assembled in the court the dangers that were arising and would progress from that conspiracy, which he anticipated would become one against property of every kind ; that property was the principle which hold society together, and that the publication, though professing to dissuade from a violation of the law, and though adopting as its motto a monition of that sort, and, as it were, proceeding to preach submis sion to the law, that nevertheless, in fact, it recommended not to violate the law, but to baffle, defeat and undermine the law in such a dexterous way as that those Myles J. O'Reilly, who substantially violated it might yet elude the punishment of the law. The Esq. address which Mr. Baron Smith then delivered on passing sentence on those rioters was, by the magistrates, published in a large placard, and in vast numbers. posted up all through the county, and transmitted to all the clergy ; put up in the public-houses, and in every other way endeavours made to render it as useful as possible. In the same placard the magistrates thought fit to publish an address of exhortation to the inhabitants of the county, in which they endeavoured, as far as depended upon them, to assist in promoting the good which the learned Baron contemplated in pronouncing that address. They particularly repeated his observations, that " while we recommend submission to the law, let us not therefore address to the lower ranks topics calculated to inflame their minds to a violation of the law, which we are vainly, if not hypocritically, calling upon them to obey. How can we expect to be thought sincere, if we say to a simple audience of, perhaps, more or less suffering people, ' only see how the law oppresses, impoverishes and degrades you, but listen to a friend's advice, and render to the law implicit reverence and obedience. " The learned Baron added, " I have ceased to be acquainted with this county. I once knew it, and if it be not changed from what it was, its magistracy, while they pull together, as they ought to do, while they exercise a legitimate influence over the humbler classes, as they ought to do, and as it is for the benefit of those classes that they should do, they are kind and indulgent protectors of them ; they are so, unless the character of the county be changed, and I have no reason to suppose it is." At the same assizes three other persons had been capitally convicted for a Whiteboy attack on the house of William Mahrar, a land surveyor, on the night of Tuesday the 31st of May 1831 ; and Baron Smith, when appointing the 25th of August as the day of execution for those three individuals, stated, " That it was the state of the country that might render example indispensable, and if that state should be improving, and if the magistrates should find that example, short of death, would be sufficient, and represent to that effect, he should be most willing to co- operate with their humanity ; that therefore, if mercy should be extended, to the protecting and kind interference of the magistrates, rather than to him, however willingly he might concur, should those persons be indebted, and to the magistrates those convicts, and the lower orders, ought to be proportionably grateful. " The magistrates therefore called, by the printed papers already mentioned, upon all persons who were likely to be able to exercise a beneficial influence in the county, to try anxiously and zealously to promote a better temper in the people, and, above all, to induce them, by every influence that could be exercised, to give up those habits of disturbance that had disgraced the country, and particularly to surrender the arms which they even at that time had robbed in considerable numbers. As the day for the execution approached, the magistrates became extremely uneasy, finding that their efforts to induce the surrender of arms, and to excite that influence which they hoped might have been effectual for that, purpose, had altogether, or nearly altogether, failed ; it certainly did not appear that those efforts were made, which certain persons in the county had it perhaps more particularly in their power to make, to induce the surrender of arms, and the sum total of arms that were so surrendered upon that occasion amounted to a very few stands, principally given up, or coming from the immediate parish or parishes to which those culprits belonged. The magistrates had hoped that they might have had a better warranty than their own wishes to interfere to save the lives of the three convicts, but felt themselves obliged finally, under the influence of humane feelings towards persons whose crime had not been attended by any personal violence on the inhabitants of the house that had been assailed, and who were in their then helpless state utterly unable to exercise any influence among their confederates in order to save themselves ; the magistrates, under those circumstances, held a general meeting, and determined to petition the Lord Lieutenant to commute the capital punishment of those three unfortu The magistrates upon that occasion were not without a well-founded suspicion, amounting indeed to a conviction in the minds of the greater part of them I believe, if not the whole, that it was the object of those persons whose influence had not been used for the tranquillization of the country, but the contrary, that the execution of those three men should take place, and that it should be imputed to the want of humanity, or to the blood- thirstiness, of the magistrates, that such a catastrophe should have occurred. Indenate men pendent of those efforts which the violent speeches of the agitators of that county had exhibited to render the magistrates contemptible and hateful in the minds of the common people, efforts had been previously made from a much more influential quarter to accomplish the same purpose : Dr. Doyle had taken effectual means for that purpose ; he had, in his " Letters, described the magistrates generally in these words : " But the great mass of our little esquires, who are called gentry, are men of much pride and little property, possessing a few hundred pounds a-year, God knows how acquired, labouring perhaps to keep a carriage, if not, to have at least a dog, a horse, and a gun. They are made up of every possible description of persons. I could delineate them accurately and minutely, but I think it better to state generally, that a great portion of these men are the very curse and scourge of Ireland ; they are numerous, they are very ignorant, they are extremely bigotted, they are exceedingly dishonest, they tell all manner of falsehoods, and so frequently as to assume with themselves the appearance of truth ; in a word, they could not be entrusted with your honour or your purse, and multitudes of them have no regard for the sanctity of an oath ; they are those men who often obtain the commission of the peace, and trade by it ; who get all the little perquisites arising from grand-jury jobs ; who foment discontent, who promote religious animosity, who are most zealous with the saints in distributing tracts and bibles, who are ever ready to attend vestries, to impose taxes, to share in their expenditure, to forward addresses to pray for the Insurrection Act, or any other Act which might serve to oppress the people, and render permanent their own iniquitous sway.' Under these circumstances, the year 1831 closed without any improvement in the county, and the moral effect which the assizes had been calculated to produce, and that influence which it might naturally have been expected the eloquent and energetic observations of the learned Baron Smith might have been expected to effect, were rendered worse than nugatory ; the respect for the laws and magisterial body, and for the gentry of the county, individually or collectively, deteriorated and decreased in a most remarkable degree : as an individual I would scarcely have believed that such a perceptible change could, within that space of time, without any fault or culpability on my own part, have taken place, as I observed in the general appearance and temper of the individuals, as I was passing along the road, towards myself individually ; and I make no doubt that that species of change was much more remarkable and much more observable in respect of other individuals whose conduct had been, I believe, equally respectable and as little culpable as mine. In the early part of the year 1832 the commissions of all the magistracy of Ireland were considered to have ceased by the demise of the Crown, and the magistrates received official notice that they could not any longer act under those commissions ; it was at the same time intimated to them that they might receive new commissions on payment of certain fees : as many of those magistrates had already paid fees, to the extent of 10l. for each commission, and several of them for more than a single commission myself had paid for two, ) they were called together by the lord-lieutenant of the county, and in most respectful terms submitted to the Government, that they considered those fees, if not unjust, at least impolitic, and requested their remission, stating at the same time, however, their full determination not to allow the decision upon that point to have any influence whatsoever on their conduct as magistrates, but that, on the contrary, they were fully determined to fulfil their accustomed duties at whatever cost and under whatever circumstances. They received in reply a copy of a letter written by the Lord Chancellor of Ireland, addressed to the Earl of Longford, dated the 26th of December 1831 , stating, that those fees were legal, and that he had no interest directly or indirectly in them ; under those circumstances there was some delay in the taking out of the commissions . Some ofthe magistrates did take out commissions, and others delayed and postponed doing so, during the discussions in Parliament as to the fees ; not with any intention, as I am fully and well persuaded, and as I personally know, of foregoing any part of the trouble of the magisterial office, or upon any still more unworthy principle of denying to the Government and to the country the benefit of their services, in order to save to themselves that pecuniary amount, so entirely contemptible, as to be no object even to the poorest of them : but the delay of taking out the commissions did for a time so far obstruct the administration of the law within the county as it had relation to the holding of the petty sessions ; but long before those fees were utterly abandoned and pronounced illegal, a great many of the magistrates had received their commissions, and paid for them, and all were as anxious then, as at Myles J. O'Reilly, any time within my knowledge, to promote the well-being of the Queen's County, and to fulfil the duties they had been long in the habit of performing, in the most disinterested, exemplary and respectable manner. On the 22d of February 1832, " At a general meeting of magistrates of the Queen's County, at that time in the commission of the peace, or who having lately held the same, had not yet received the renewal thereof, duly convened and presided at by Viscount De Vesci, lord-lieutenant of the county, at Maryborough, to take into considera￾tion the disorganized and alarming state of many districts of the county, it was unanimously resolved : First, that the disturbances which prevail in this and some of the adjoining counties, and the general state of insubordination, has arisen to a most alarming height. 2d, that a systematic plunder of arms from the loyal and peaceable inhabitants continues to be exercised at all hours, so that no man can venture to leave his house unguarded at any hour in the four-andtwenty ; it appearing that within the last three months, 133 houses within the confines of the Queen's County alone, have been attacked, from 65 of which arms were plundered, in many cases in considerable numbers, independently of those procured by an organized system of intimidation, and therefore not reported to the police ; and in addition to various other outrages committed on the well-disposed inhabitants. 3d. That every day's experience convinces us that the law, as it now stands, is wholly inefficient to put down the dangerous combina￾tion which at present prevails, and that nothing would so effectually tend so to do as the re- enactment of the Insurrection Act, which has, on trial, been found effectual for restoring the public peace, and affording security and safety to the peaceable and well-disposed. 4th. That we do therefore request the lord-lieutenant of our county to represent to the Government the necessity of the immediate attention of the Legislature to this subject, that they may adopt such measures as they in their wisdom shall think fit to enforce the observance of the laws, and by so doing to restore peace and order in this distracted county. 5th. That it is our opinion that an increase of 60 men should be immediately made, under the Constabulary Act, to the police of the Queen's County, and that Viscount de Vesci be requested to apply to His Excellency the lord - lieutenant to direct such increase, which we on our part guarantee to sanction at our next quarter sessions, but that such number shall not continue to be kept up hereafter by ensuing quarter sessions, unless a general meeting of the magistrates shall deem it necessary." 66 (Reply. ) " Dublin Castle, 28 Feb. 1832. My Lord, I have the honour, by desire of the Lord Lieutenant, to acknowledge the receipt of the Resolutions entered into at a general meeting, at which your lordship presided, of the magistrates of the Queen's County, to take into consideration the disorganized and alarming state of many districts of that county. The Lord Lieutenant directs me to assure your lordship, and the several other magistrates concerned, that he deeply deplores the disturbances prevailing in the Queen's and adjoining counties. His Excellency's most earnest attention has been directed to their suppression. Certain districts have been proclaimed and placed under the operation of the Peace Preservation Act. The military force has been augmented, and the best energies of the constabulary called forth . Until it has been found that these and all other measures within the law have failed in restoring the country to a state of order and tranquillity, His Excellency would not be disposed to recommend the enactment of the Insurrection Act. The Lord Lieutenant will be always ready to afford to the magistrates his best aid and support in the vindication of the laws. The application for the augmentation of sixty men to the constabulary force of the county, although not made at quarter sessions, yet coming from and being guaranteed by so respectable a body of magistrates, His Excellency will immediately take upon himselfto order. I have the honour to be, my lord, your lordship's most obcdient humble servant, " Lord Viscount de Vesci, " " William Gosset."

  • 6714. You have recommended the shutting up of public-houses ; did not an unfortunate occurrence take place in consequence of an order to that effect some time ago?-Yes, it was in the furtherance of that order the police went from Abbeyleix to Ballynakill to clear the public- houses ; when in the act of clearing them a homicide took place.

  • 6715. What was the consequence ?-Lord de Vesci was from home, and there was not a magistrate in the place at the time. As the police brought the parties who were in company with M'Daniel, the deceased, prisoners before me, I inquired into the matter, and I found there was a homicide committed, and I thought it my duty to ascertain whether any of the police were concerned in that homicide ; in point of fact, I made prisoners of five or six of them. I then called a general meeting of the local magistrates, and we sent them to the inquest, and the verdict of the jury charged them with the homicide ; they were committed, tried, found guilty, and transported.

  • 6716. Where did this occur ? --In the town of Ballynakill.

  • 6717. Were any efforts made by the magistrates in favour of the police ?- Yes ; after the conviction took place, the magistrates, generally, of Queen's County forwarded a memorial ( I was one of two that refused to sign it) to have their sentence commuted.

  • 6718. Did they subscribe any money ?-Yes, there was a subscription entered into.

  • 6719. Did the memorial produce any mitigation ?-No ; five out of six were sent off.

  • 6720. Did they obtain any situation afterwards ?-Yes, I have heard that some of them have obtained civil situations in Botany Bay.

  • 6721. Did this produce any effect upon the people as to the administration of justice ?-It produced a very hostile feeling to the police, and naturally re-acted back from the police to the peasantry. M'Daniel was a farmer of some respecta￾bility ; it certainly appeared very bad against the police at the time ; there were eleven men engaged in striking down one ; that is a good while ago, and the police are very much altered and improved since that occurred, for the better.

  • 6722. Did that produce any hostile feeling towards the magistrates for the course they took upon that occasion ?-I cannot say it did ; the magistrates most active were not the local magistrates ; it was the magistrates from Ossory that took the most active part in endeavouring to get the sentence commuted.

  • 6905. Were not some of those tithe meetings held in the chapels ?-I do not think there were many meetings in my county.

  • 6906. Have you heard of any of those meetings held in the chapels ? -Yes, I have ; there were meetings in Ballynakill and elsewhere.

  • 6907. Did not the priests attend at many of those meetings ?--I am not aware of it.